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Weekly Topic/Class/Discussion Notes - Wednesday, June 8, 2011

Wednesday, June 8, 2011

Discipline vs. Punishment

 

Class log  06-08-2011

 

[CJsHere] 9:07 pm : let's see,, as I recall, the last couple of classes, or discussions, we've talked about essentially getting started in a D/s relationship..
[CJsHere] 9:08 pm : we've discussed a bit of how the initial foundation gets put into place to pursue a relationship, and we've talked a bit about some of the "expectations" that exist. or may exist, or could be expected.
[CJsHere] 9:09 pm : tonight let's talk a bit about how the dominant can change behavior, or habits, or even "teach" a girl how to comply, or if you will, "submit"..
[CJsHere] 9:10 pm : there are actualy lots of ways of doing this,, the most well known, but by all means, not the only is thru teaching discipline, and using punnishments.
[CJsHere] 9:11 pm : and again, please. as we go along, feel free to ask questions, make comments or share your thoughts on the subject, so, here we go.
[CJsHere] 9:12 pm : I believe many people in the lifestyle confuse discipline and punishment. Discipline is training that corrects. It molds, empowers and enhances a person for the better.
[CJsHere] 9:13 pm : Punishment comes when there are consequences set for the submissive when he/she displeases the Dominant, breaks a rule, and/or misbehaves.
[CJsHere] 9:14 pm : Discipline is a teaching relationship that goes on between the Dominant and the submissive. It is to mold the submissive into what the Dominant not only wants, but feels will improve the submissive. Because if she is improved she will obviously be a better submissive.
[CJsHere] 9:15 pm : To me discipline is the day-to-day structure established for a submissive by the Dominant, whose goal is to teach, guide, and mold the submissive how to live to serve him/her better and also enhance the submissive as a person.
[CJsHere] 9:16 pm : The goal of discipline is eventually self-discipline or self-regulation. Dominants can't baby-sit submissives 24/7. So they want their submissives, when they are away from them, to have a system of rules within them that they will use to govern their behavior toward themselves and toward others.
[CJsHere] 9:18 pm : Dominants want to bring their outside control inside the submissive. And at first the submissive is motivated purely by the wish to please and serve the Dominant. But gradually, that molding of the behavior, way of living, thinking and believing becomes self-discipline.
[CJsHere] 9:18 pm : The submissive's Dominant wants, desires, and needs become that of the submissives too. Discipline does not always carry with it punishment. Discipline can be as simple as a look or gesture.
[CJsHere] 9:19 pm : Discipline is the reinforcement of behavior that better serves the Dominant. It is the framework where a submissive resides.
[CJsHere] 9:20 pm : Sometimes you can have punishment that exists separately from discipline. The two aren't always linked together, but in certain instances they coincide.
[Rod] 9:20 pm : punishment would be for failure to maintain the discipline
[CJsHere] 9:22 pm : First off punishment is not to be confused with S&M play. S&M is for "enjoyment" - by definition, "play" is typically enjoyed by one or both parties.
[CJsHere] 9:22 pm : Therefore if punishments are consequences of violating rules or otherwise displeasing the submissive's Dominant, then punishment should be cold, to the point, and not enjoyable by the submissive. In most cases the Dominant will not enjoy it either.
[CJsHere] 9:23 pm : It is the Dominant's wish that their submissive would have obeyed. Conversely a Dominant should not abuse the philosophy behind what a punishment is and what it represents. If the Dominant wants to play, then play, but don't make up something to punish the submissive.
[Lord-Canuck_tf] 9:23 pm : A Dom does not punish foor failure of discipline
[CJsHere] 9:24 pm : A Dominant, who uses punishments as a way to play S&M, is likely to cause the submissive even more stress and confusion.
[CJsHere] 9:25 pm : Punishment is something the submissive should want to avoid. There are many that believe a submissive will "purposely" act out to get punished. There are several different reasons why a submissive may act out on purpose.
[CJsHere] 9:26 pm : They may only want a play-partner S&M relationship or they may be acting out to get punished because the submissive's needs are not getting met. Often times they do not know how to communicate their needs to the Dominant.
[CJsHere] 9:26 pm : A punishment should clearly identify what was done wrong, what can be done to correct it, and why the infraction displeased the Dominant.
[CJsHere] 9:27 pm : The Dominant should clearly identify the means in which the punishment is to be carried out, then it should be handled as soon as possible.
[CJsHere] 9:28 pm : If the punishment is too soft, it might not help the submissive learn from the infraction and might create confusion. If the punishment is too hard, the submissive might become fearful and resentful of the Dominant.
[CJsHere] 9:29 pm : After punishment is administered there should be absolution - forgiveness. A process of accepting the consequences and punishment of a violation and moving forward. Once a punishment is carried out, a Dominant should not carry it over, nor should the submissive keep kicking himself or herself in the butt.
[CJsHere] 9:29 pm : A punishment is a sense of closure for both the Dominant and the submissive and should be embraced as such.
[CJsHere] 9:31 pm : The mindset of a submissive that is being punished goes very deep and expansive. A dominant chooses things that a submissive will not like.
[CJsHere] 9:31 pm : Even if they pick out a favorite toy to use on a submissive, in most cases, the session will not be enjoyed because the mindset associated with being punished. When submissives are being punished, it's because they have done something wrong.
little_girl raises her hand
[CJsHere] 9:31 pm : nods to little_girl,, listens,
[little_girl_RR] 9:32 pm : so punishment shouldnt be a long drawn out thing
[little_girl_RR] 9:32 pm : like a month long
[Lord-Canuck_tf] 9:32 pm : NO
[Lord-Canuck_tf] 9:33 pm : not at all lg
[CJsHere] 9:33 pm : no, IMHO, I would see no value to that,, but allow Me to clarify,, for example,, perhaps the punishment might be " no trips to Disneyland or the mall for a month"..
[CJsHere] 9:33 pm : while yes, that might constituted being drug out for a long time,, that's not quite what we're talking about, does that make sense?
[little_girl_RR] 9:34 pm : ok so it could be but its would be things like that but not physical punishment
[CJsHere] 9:34 pm : to go on and on, harping about something, or say, a spanking a day for a month, I would think that would be counterproductive,
[little_girl_RR] 9:35 pm : i understand Sir
[Lord-Canuck_tf] 9:35 pm : physical punishment should only be carried out once then it is done
[traceoffyre_LC] 9:36 pm : and let's say for a punishment you were to wash all the dishes and the cabinets b/c you don't like that, that would be a punishment but you shouldn't have to do that every day for a month - you would lose the point and become resentful after a few days
[CJsHere] 9:36 pm : nods in agreement with LC and trace.
[traceoffyre_LC] 9:37 pm : and once you become resentful things will break down even further with your Dom
[CJsHere] 9:37 pm : but again, to emphasize,, as an example, sure, I could see (depending on the problem) a girl losing a privilege for a month,,
[CJsHere] 9:37 pm : I don't think that would be unreasonable, or out of line,, again,, depending on what the punishment was for.
[Lord-Canuck_tf] 9:37 pm : I agree CJ on losing a privilege for a period of time
[little_girl_RR] 9:37 pm : ok thats kinda what i was talking about
[little_girl_RR] 9:37 pm : privileges
[CJsHere] 9:38 pm : when submissives are being punished, it's because they have done something wrong,,, you don't want that to drag out so they've forgotten why they are punished,
[CJsHere] 9:38 pm : That alone can be punishment, but when used in conjunction with an act, an implement, or whatever other means - the act in and of itself is not enjoyed. The totality of the episode remains until the Dominant is satisfied to the point of absolution. Then he/she and the submissive can move forward.
[traceoffyre_LC] 9:39 pm : but again it depends on the privilege
[CJsHere] 9:39 pm : nods,
[CJsHere] 9:39 pm : Making the distinction between discipline and punishment is important. It is critical to understand the process of both and how they are separate and how they can coincide. To better illustrate the differences, let's examine a couple of hypothetical examples of each aspect.
[fire_AsjFG] 9:39 pm : and never... being *ignored*
[traceoffyre_LC] 9:40 pm : agrees with fire
[laynie_MBS] 9:40 pm : agrees
[Lord-Canuck_tf] 9:40 pm : never use the ignore as a punishment
[CJsHere] 9:41 pm : An example of discipline: your Dominant may not want you to bite your fingernails. The forms of discipline to control the behavior can include anything from putting icky-tasting nail polish on your nails, to putting gloves on your hands, or taping your fingers together.
[CJsHere] 9:41 pm : Each step does not necessarily consist of a form of punishment, but a series of steps to adjust the behavior for your Dominant.
[CJsHere] 9:42 pm : An example of punishment: you may have a rule that you cannot access the Internet while your Dominant is at work. One day, he comes home and finds the computer signed on the Internet. It is a clear violation of the rule.
[CJsHere] 9:43 pm : He expresses his displeasure and reprimands you. you know you did something that violated his wishes and the rules he set out for you. He then will tell what you did wrong, how it displeased him, how you can correct it in the future and then will administer the punishment he chooses.
[manda] 9:43 pm : i have a question
[CJsHere] 9:44 pm : sure,, listens,
[manda] 9:44 pm : Okay I have a question I feel like any idiot asking in class but say a Sir asks his sub to do something like watch something and she does but it falls and breaks and the sub explained situation and Sir was fine with explanation but the sub still feels she deserves punishment would that Dom still do the punishment to make the sub feel better?
[CJsHere] 9:45 pm : rereads the question, ponders a moment,
[manda] 9:45 pm : or would the Dom talk the sub out of feeling like it was their fault and resures them
[CJsHere] 9:46 pm : I think there are some details missing, that I couldn't give you a one size fits all answer... ie., why did it fall and break,,, why does she feel "guilty",, why does she feel the need for punishment?
[CJsHere] 9:47 pm : let Me give you a comparison,,,, a bit of an analogy,, quite different, but yet, quite similar,
[CJsHere] 9:47 pm : manda,,, I'm your Dom (for the moment) go to the store and buy Me a lotter ticket,,,
[manda] 9:48 pm : ok Sir
[CJsHere] 9:48 pm : hmm,, you go, you but the lottery ticket,, it doesn't win,, should you be punished?
[manda] 9:48 pm : no but say i still feel guilty and i felt that i deserve the ounishment
[manda] 9:48 pm : punishment*
[CJsHere] 9:48 pm : yep, feel guilty all right, you know I wanted a winner,,,, yet, you didn't bring a winner back?
[manda] 9:49 pm : lol yes Sir
[vanity fair] 9:49 pm : but.. that's pure luck
[CJsHere] 9:49 pm : sometimes reality is going to come into play,, it's the impossible task syndrome,,
[manda] 9:49 pm : my example was
[CJsHere] 9:50 pm : but, van,, in the example she used,, isn't that "pure luck" also,,, wasn't her fault,, was nothing she could do to prevent it,, it "just happened".. so punish her? for what?
[manda] 9:50 pm : say Sir asked me to watch something that meant something to the Sir so I watch it all day but something happens I can control and it breaks
[CJsHere] 9:50 pm : when I punish a girl, I'll always tell her what she's being punished for,, now how do I say,, I'm punishing you for,, an earthquake that broke the object?
[manda] 9:50 pm : say your tv
[CJsHere] 9:51 pm : Is that a form of setting you up for failure?
[manda] 9:51 pm : thats the best I got on the top of my head lol sorry
[CJsHere] 9:51 pm : or would it be better to figure out what is going on that is causing that emotion or reaction that she wants to be punished for nothing?
[manda] 9:52 pm : yeah i guess so
[vanity fair] 9:52 pm : well punishment is obviously uncalled for.. so why would she feel guilty in the first place?
[CJsHere] 9:52 pm : if it was pure and simple, not something within the control of the girl, if the girl had reasonably taken steps to prevent the issue,,, what is it she's being punished for?
[CJsHere] 9:53 pm : smiles,, many girls do,,, and yes, some of that may have to do with everything from self esteem, self confidence, the desire to serve/please,, all those things combined.
[manda] 9:53 pm : i guess it doesn;t make sense but in my head lol
[vanity fair] 9:53 pm : oh well... doesn't sound right to me.. anyway
vanity fair listens
[CJsHere] 9:53 pm : nods, and yes, remember a great part of this lifestyle is actually reflective of what goes on in "our heads".
[vanity fair] 9:54 pm : its ok manda... emotions are irrational for a reason lol
[CJsHere] 9:54 pm : While the focus of this topic tonight has been to lay down the differences between discipline and punishment, there are times when the two do exist in the same spot at the same time. Solely relying on one part or the other is not realistic or responsible.
[traceoffyre_LC] 9:55 pm : many times when a girl has been abused in the past and is now in a D/s relationship, it is hard to accept that not everything is her fault and that she doesn't always deserve punishment
[CJsHere] 9:55 pm : Educating ourselves about the differences and the similarities refines our methodology and improves our relationships.
[CJsHere] 9:55 pm : As with other critical discussion areas within the lifestyle, the philosophies behind discipline and punishment should be fully explored and discussed in the beginning stages of a relationship.
[vanity fair] 9:55 pm : well then the girl in question must seek help before getting involved in a relatioship of such kind...
[vanity fair] 9:56 pm : agreed Sir
[CJsHere] 9:56 pm : in an ideal world, probably yes van,, but, not quite reality..
[vanity fair] 9:56 pm : and yet... D/s doesnt fix anything if you have issues, people must be aware of that
[brandy] 9:56 pm : sometimes the best help is from someone who cares for th girl..just as she is..imperfect and wonderful at the same time..
[CJsHere] 9:57 pm : We should not underestimate the importance of a complete and open discussion on topics such as this. Everyone in the lifestyle has unique perspective and so what each believes can and most likely will be something different. It is but another piece of the complex puzzle that determines the success or failure of the pairing within the lifestyle.
[CJsHere] 9:58 pm : seems to Me, it's just another place we can insert the importance of the "C" word, communication.
[manda] 9:58 pm : knows what your talkng about Sir
[vanity fair] 9:58 pm : communication is required in all sorts of relationships anyway so of course
[CJsHere] 9:59 pm : so yes,, bottom line, as we form our relationship, as we learn more and more about each other, as we discuss so many other things, including limits, boundaries, etc., we need to discuss expectations and mannerisms regarding things such as discipline and punishment,
vanity fair is wide awake and nodding
[manda] 10:01 pm : agrees with Sir
[CJsHere] 10:01 pm : submissives want badly to be perfect for their Dominants, so much so that they put an extraordinary amount of pressure on themselves, often forgetting that it is not part of their dynamic.
[CJsHere] 10:03 pm : So instead of putting pressure on yourselves how about remembering that by realizing submissives don't need to be perfect you can become more mindful in the moment of your service. Letting go of pressure to perform perfectly makes your attitude better, your energy levels up, your stress level down, and your service better.
[vanity fair] 10:03 pm : makes sense *nods again*
[CJsHere] 10:04 pm : And all of that is what comes from doing what you should have been all along serving to the best of your ability the way your Dominant wants and needs.
[CJsHere] 10:04 pm : and again, those famous words,,,, make sense?
[fire_AsjFG] 10:05 pm : other famous words... *easier said than done*?... but yes Master...
[vanity fair] 10:05 pm : lol firey
[manda] 10:05 pm : agrees with fire
[CJsHere] 10:06 pm : nods, I agree,, but, little steps, one at a time,, you'll still get to your destination, but, with precision.

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