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Weekly Topic/Class/Discussion Notes - Wednesday, May 26, 2010

Wednesday, May 26, 2010

What is a Dominant

Presented by WinterBorn

 

Class Notes 05/26/2010

 [WinterBorn] 9:26 pm: ok let's begin
[WinterBorn] 9:27 pm: since RB spoke last time about "what is a submissive" I
thought I'd talk about "what is a Dominant"
[WinterBorn] 9:27 pm: First thanks in advance everyone for your participation
[WinterBorn] 9:27 pm: I've prepared somewhat so I will hopefully be presenting
some thoughts rather quickly
[WinterBorn] 9:28 pm: "Dominant" for tonight's purposes should be taken to
mean, a Dominant personality, including Dommes, Masters and Mistresses, although it's heavily skewed towards My own path
[WinterBorn] 9:28 pm: E/everyone please feel free to jump in and add anything
that comes to mind, if several people start going at once I'll slow down and
moderate if necessary, giving the floor in rotation
[WinterBorn] 9:28 pm: feel free to go back to anything, mention other topics if
they occur to you or whatever
[WinterBorn] 9:28 pm: the more the merrier, if there's anything you think will
be thought provoking, helpful, or is interesting or meaningful to you, everyone
is welcome to chime in
[WinterBorn] 9:30 pm: some things I was hoping we'd all chime in, so why don't
we take it order we appear on the list of people here, feel free to say "pass"
if you need to gather your thoughts
[WinterBorn] 9:32 pm: first question, what do you think would be job description
or two that would be likely to appeal to Dom's?
[WinterBorn] 9:32 pm: oh, since I've thought about these, I'll start, and then
to infinity, RB, and so on
[babydoll0629] 9:33 pm: takes her turn hiding behind fire
[WinterBorn] 9:33 pm: My thoughts were, general, surgeon, cop.... but I don't
actually think many jobs would be heavily skewed towards either role.......
infinity?
[faith_SVeC] 9:33 pm: faiths order is different....lol
[fire] 9:33 pm: also...but shhhh
[WinterBorn] 9:33 pm: oh..... um...... ok...... hmmmm
[WinterBorn] 9:34 pm: let's go alphabetically then..... babyoll, dream, faith,
fire etc
[WinterBorn] 9:34 pm: *babydoll*
[fire] 9:34 pm: pushes baby out front
[babydoll0629] 9:34 pm: may i ask for clarification
[faith_SVeC] 9:34 pm: Sir WinterBorn, dream is afk
[WinterBorn] 9:35 pm: oh ok, thanks
[faith_SVeC] 9:35 pm: no problem Sir WinterBorn
[WinterBorn] 9:35 pm: question is, is there any job description you think,
people with that job are more likely to be Doms? feel free to comment or explain
too
[babydoll0629] 9:35 pm: Job discription as a sub for a Dom or just a job in
general a Dom would like to do
[WinterBorn] 9:36 pm: the latter
[babydoll0629] 9:36 pm: Some people would think being a correctional officer
would be one
[babydoll0629] 9:36 pm: being in control of inmates
[babydoll0629] 9:36 pm: but not always true
[babydoll0629] 9:37 pm: i as a sub was one (officer)
[WinterBorn] 9:37 pm: oh, interesting....... haven't seen ashes in forever, but
her Zain is a CO
[WinterBorn] 9:38 pm: any thoughts faith?
[faith_SVeC] 9:39 pm: well obviously a police officer would come to mind. my
first Master was a tx Cop.
[faith_SVeC] 9:39 pm: however i dont think we can limit a "title" to a
Dominate...
[WinterBorn] 9:39 pm: I agree, faith
[WinterBorn] 9:40 pm: Hi vixen, welcome back, we've just started a discussion on
"what is a Dominant"... we're all offering our thoughts on a job description
that would appeal to Dom's
[faith_SVeC] 9:40 pm: i believe you would be rather surprised by what lies
beneath.take me for instance. im a teacher, run a class of very severe
behaviours. im "Dom" in my class everyday, to the extreme. a natural assumption
in our lives would to say hey, she must be a Mistress
[faith_SVeC] 9:40 pm: laffs, im FAR from that tho
[WinterBorn] 9:41 pm: going alphabetically by screen name... fire will bring you
up to speed by PM if you have any questions
[WinterBorn] 9:42 pm: great point and I strongly agree faith.... I think most of
the people I've met in this lifestyle are very different in their private lives,
to what coworkers would guess
[faith_SVeC] 9:42 pm: no thoughts on that ?
[faith_SVeC] 9:42 pm: so, i dont think we can label Dom or sub with a job
[lilvixen0521] 9:43 pm: ok
[WinterBorn] 9:43 pm: I'd guess that's an accurate generalization, what do y'all
think?
[RB0629] 9:44 pm: It is a good one
[babydoll0629] 9:44 pm: you just don't know
[fire] 9:44 pm: agrees.....
[WinterBorn] 9:44 pm: ok so a Dom doesn't necessarily show His nature at work
[babydoll0629] 9:44 pm: no Sir
[infinity_CA] 9:45 pm: any position of a managerial nature, like a program
manager, one in which They delegate responsibilities, lead discussions, manage
other people's time, self discipline in terms of self management or a position
that requires a form of asceticism, as in a psychologist. this is different from
*my* definition of a Dom, however.
[fire] 9:45 pm: i own a company.....i direct and tell people what to do all
day.....but....i am NOT a Domme
[WinterBorn] 9:46 pm: thanks infinity, excellently worded....... would you care
to share your definition? feel free to gather your thoughts and come back to it,
if you prefer
[fire] 9:46 pm: but....i don't think that is what Your question was Sir......not
how i took it to mean anyway.....You asked what job...would a Dom...like ...to
be...placed in...what would suit Him so to speak
[infinity_CA] 9:46 pm: a Dom is an indivdiual who needs bio-psycho-social
control over another.
[WinterBorn] 9:47 pm: so jobs that center around leading, exercising authority,
analysis of discipline and analysis of others, would tend to attract Dominant
personalities
[fire] 9:47 pm: exactly
[fire] 9:48 pm: SirWB.....this girls take would be....surgeon, CEO,pilot,
[WinterBorn] 9:49 pm: infinity just offered a really thought provoking
definition of a Dom: a Dom is an individual who needs bio-psycho-social control
over another.
[WinterBorn] 9:49 pm: lilly, vixen, any thoughts before we go to infinity's
definition?
[WinterBorn] 9:50 pm: job descriptions that would likely appeal to Doms?
[mysticlilly] 9:50 pm: Principal, IT Specialist, Military
[mysticlilly] 9:50 pm: Pilot
[CJsHere] 9:50 pm: clarification,, needs, wants, or has?
[RB0629] 9:50 pm: but not all military are in leadership positions
[WinterBorn] 9:50 pm: IT specialists... hm very interesting one

[mysticlilly] 9:50 pm: my experience
[WinterBorn] 9:51 pm: fits My stepdad, I'd say He's definitely a Dominant
personality.... and most of His friends in that field, too
[WinterBorn] 9:51 pm: jaz, vixen?
[lilvixen0521] 9:52 pm: huh
[lilvixen0521] 9:52 pm: sorry im listening im just on the phone 2
[fire] 9:52 pm: np vixen
[fire] 9:52 pm: jazzy?
[WinterBorn] 9:52 pm: no worries, we'll take that as pass
[jazmin] 9:53 pm: fireman
[WinterBorn] 9:54 pm: hm, come to think of it I took an EMT class and the
instructor had some interesting thoughts on all emergency responders and their
God complexes
[WinterBorn] 9:54 pm: CJ, care to add Your thoughts? job description that would
appeal to Doms?
[jazmin] 9:54 pm: i say fireman because they have to be take charge kind of
people. would not want a wimpy oh what do i do tghthat house is on fire
[RB0629] 9:54 pm: My military job requires me to have the same type of complex
[WinterBorn] 9:55 pm: makes sense, jaz
[jazmin] 9:55 pm: tghth is supposed to read what do i do that house is on fire
[jazmin] 9:56 pm: type comming to my rescue
[WinterBorn] 9:56 pm: lol it's ok I think we can all identify with keyboards
that occasionally need an exorcist.....
[jazmin] 9:56 pm: lol
[lilvixen0521] 9:56 pm: lol
[CJsHere] 9:56 pm: am I correct, you're looking for job description titles?
[WinterBorn] 9:56 pm: correct
[CJsHere] 9:57 pm: hmm,, I would think, just My opinion, the title would be a
bit irrelevant,, perhaps a mixture of Shrink, Lion Tamer, Snake Charmer, Milk
Man, Preacher and Life Guard..
[CJsHere] 9:58 pm: for good measure, you could toss in Military Officer,
Corporate CEO, Personnel Director, and Hair Stylist.
[fire] 9:58 pm: has always wondered about the milk man....hmmm
[RB0629] 9:58 pm: I like that definition
[WinterBorn] 9:58 pm: lol........ hairstylist... interesting
[CJsHere] 9:59 pm: no, not trying to make light, but,, it isn't any one job that
a good Dominant has that would qualify Him to be a Dominant is it?
[CJsHere] 9:59 pm: and yes Hairstylist, after all, shouldn't a Dominant have a
clue of how He wants His girl to look/appear, and how to get her there?
[CJsHere] 10:00 pm: If I had to pick a single job title, I'd have to say it
would have to be in management of some kind,,, supervisory at a minimum,,
[WinterBorn] 10:00 pm: excellent point, close to the one faith made... looks
like W/we're all agreed that certain traits may be reflected in our career
choice but D/s roles don't necessarily show with a large degree of certainty
[CJsHere] 10:00 pm: remember, the Dominant's role is in many ways to balance,,
[WinterBorn] 10:02 pm: next thought... CJ has often said, D/s relationships
aren't necessarily sexual..... curious what the room thinks, would a Dom likel
have certain distinguishing aspects to His sex life? higher libido, "kinkier",
more likely to be a sadist? anyone think a masochistic Dom could exist?
[CJsHere] 10:02 pm: yes, I think there are some professions that will help us to
develop a Dominant skill.. per se,, but no, I can't think of many jobs that just
as a single job would teach us to be an all encompassing Dominant,
[WinterBorn] 10:04 pm: CJ, going alphabetically, care to start this round? in
other words, the question is, how would Dominance likely show in the bedroom?
[CJsHere] 10:04 pm: smiles.. sure ya want Me to start?
[WinterBorn] 10:05 pm: Your call, You're welcome to bow out of course if You
prefer
[CJsHere] 10:05 pm: first, I'd suggest that Dominance shouldn't first show up in
the Bedroom, not in a D/s relationship, BDSM, perhaps, D/s, no..
[CJsHere] 10:06 pm: a Dominant can in fact be a masochist, nothing says they can't
[CJsHere] 10:06 pm: but again, as a Masochist, the Dominant must make sure that He's sticking within the boundaries/limits of those in the relationship,
including His own.
[CJsHere] 10:08 pm: Dominance, whether in or out of the bedroom is essentially
with the dominant person taking charge, whether physically, or emotionally..
[CJsHere] 10:08 pm: remember, sometimes a Dominant can dominate without even saying a word,, without it being said or spoken that He's a dominant.
[CJsHere] 10:08 pm: listens
[fire] 10:08 pm: thinks the word "control" comes to mind...
[WinterBorn] 10:09 pm: any thoughts to add to your Master's comments, faith?
[faith_SVeC] 10:09 pm: thinking.......
[WinterBorn] 10:10 pm: fire, care to elaborate on "control"?
[WinterBorn] 10:10 pm: faith we'll come back to you shortly
[faith_SVeC] 10:10 pm: i think if the first time you see dominance is in the
bedroom, perhaps your "Dom" needs to evalute who he really is
[WinterBorn] 10:12 pm: faith, in your experience what would you say is likely
the first time you'd notice Someone's Dominant personality?
[WinterBorn] 10:12 pm: *initial, most obvious, or noticeable expression of
Dominance*?
[fire] 10:12 pm: Doninance to me....is to be controlled.....to know that, my
everyday things....are being looked at, watched over, part of being cared for,
[faith_SVeC] 10:13 pm: tone of voice WinterBorn Sir.
[fire] 10:13 pm: isn't sure she made sense on that
[WinterBorn] 10:14 pm: hm, I debated different plans for tonight, seems the
first one isn't flying real quickly, but thanks everyone it's going exactly as I
hoped
[WinterBorn] 10:14 pm: excellent thoughts both of you, thanks
[WinterBorn] 10:14 pm: ok, here was what I hoped W/we would talk about, this is
My opinions and so far it seems the room, generally, agrees
[WinterBorn] 10:15 pm: Dominance probably isn't obvious at work and wouldn't
confine Someone to any job or prohibit them from another.... nor a submissive
for that matter
[WinterBorn] 10:15 pm: nor would either role confine or prohibit any bedroom
activity
[infinity_CA] 10:15 pm: Dominance is a bio-psycho-social state of control. what
is control? it is a psychological construct. a dominant male in the bedroom is
an alpha male. there is a difference. to be under bio psycho social control is
to be under a holistic control. very simply, the Dom must be the ubermensch as
nietzsche poined out in great detail.
[WinterBorn] 10:16 pm: is going to have to read up on Nietszsche in greater
depth
[fire] 10:17 pm: laughs
[chetemarina] 10:17 pm: love him...and Machiavelli. underlying currents of
Dominant philosphy that are quite interesting lol
[WinterBorn] 10:17 pm: meanwhile here's a lot more thoughts, I'll simply present
My opinions and convictions, and hopefully it inspires thought and conversation
[CJsHere] 10:17 pm: if I may,, infinity, yes, I can understand the words you
put, but,, I would guess that's a quote from a text,, how would you translate
that to laymans terms?
[CJsHere] 10:18 pm: defers to WB's continuation.
[WinterBorn] 10:18 pm: listens
[faith_SVeC] 10:18 pm: agrees with marina
[WinterBorn] 10:18 pm: no excellent train of thought, please go for it, infinity
[infinity_CA] 10:19 pm: no Sir CJ, those are my words.
[WinterBorn] 10:19 pm: care to try and articulate it at, say, a 10th grade
level?
[CJsHere] 10:20 pm: listens.
[infinity_CA] 10:21 pm: the ubermensche is One that has transcended all social
constraints to live fully by His own rule book. because He has risen above the
machine of society, He becomes enlightened and thus can live in the absence of
self deception, thereby gaining control of Himself and others.
[Lobby]: jazmin has left at 10:22 pm
[WinterBorn] 10:22 pm: a great coach once told Me, anyone can make a hard stunt
look hard. When you see someone make a triple back axis with 6 full spins look
easy, you're in the presence of a really good gymnast...... infinity you just
made a very complex thought simple to understand
[lilvixen0521] 10:23 pm: hmm
[infinity_CA] 10:24 pm: bio psycho social domiance is biological control over
the feminine nature, psychological control over the deep recesses of the mind
and all the walls we build and social control degrading the social order of post
modern society
[WinterBorn] 10:24 pm: some of the things I had written tie into that: a Dom is
essentially confident, visionary, the epitome of selfMastery, willing to
confront social expectations and to defy them
[WinterBorn] 10:25 pm: infinity, "post modern" has always seemed to Me to be an
illogical contradiction, not to pick on you, but could you clarify that term?
[infinity_CA] 10:26 pm: it is a sociological label of the times in which W/we
live, Sir WB.
[WinterBorn] 10:27 pm: ok...... call it a social constraint I'm content to
transcend, lol....
[WinterBorn] 10:28 pm: CJ, anything to mention?
[CJsHere] 10:29 pm: nods, If I can back up a hair,
[CJsHere] 10:29 pm: I think one of the things that was asked,, recognizing a
Dominant,,
[CJsHere] 10:29 pm: to Me,, something that helps Me to spot a Dominant a mile
away is their "attitude" or "bearing"..
[CJsHere] 10:30 pm: they don't have to say they're a Dominant,, it is easily
recognized,, it stands out in a crowd,, it isn't what they say,, it's how they
say it, it isn't what they do, its how they do it,,
[CJsHere] 10:30 pm: there is an aire of self assurance,,
[faith_SVeC] 10:31 pm: agrees with her Master
[CJsHere] 10:31 pm: it might show with body language,, but is shows overall, in
every thing they do or say.
[CJsHere] 10:32 pm: in My translation of infinitys earlier comment,, that self
assuredness shows, they don't have to worry what others think,, they know what
they think and they're proud of it, the have the confidence to be able to do as
they please, (within the constraints of their environment)
[chetemarina] 10:32 pm: i agree with that analysis
[CJsHere] 10:33 pm: hope that makes a bit of sense..
[jazmin] 10:33 pm: yes
[faith_SVeC] 10:33 pm: same may ring true for subs and slaves ( minus the do as
they please)
[CJsHere] 10:33 pm: infinity, would you concurr with that assesment?
[fire] 10:33 pm: would that be in....being decisive....direct.....etc....
[CJsHere] 10:34 pm: lol. decisive, a word I'm having trouble with of late, but
essentially, yes,, more often than not, a Dominant is decisvie,,,,, good bad or
indifferent, a Dominant should be able to make a decision,
[CJsHere] 10:35 pm: what about you baby,, how do you think you'd recognize a
Dominant personality?
[brite-] 10:35 pm: sounds like i diffently need logs of this discussion...hate i
missed it
[babydoll0629] 10:36 pm: The way they carry themselves. ummmm still thinking
[infinity_CA] 10:37 pm: i concur Sir CJ
[CJsHere] 10:37 pm: nods,, but, I'd also say that sometimes that can be
deceptive, for example, a Dominant may have no interest in dominating anyone,
so, sometimes, that "attituded can be an appearance of disinterest..
[babydoll0629] 10:37 pm: i am sorry i can't think of anything else other than
what You said above. i completely agree with you
[WinterBorn] 10:37 pm: listens
[CJsHere] 10:38 pm: understand,, a Dominant, IMHO doesn't give an aire or
appearance of "being better than you"... that's not the attitude I'm trying to
say He shows.
[babydoll0629] 10:38 pm: self confindence
[CJsHere] 10:38 pm: nods in agreement with baby .
[WinterBorn] 10:39 pm: ok, so, I'll be fairly quick
[WinterBorn] 10:39 pm: here's some opinions and convictions I've formed,
hopefully they inspire thought and conversation
[CJsHere] 10:39 pm: listens to WB
[WinterBorn] 10:40 pm: not all sex is D/s and D/s is not necessarily sexual, but
often they overlap
[WinterBorn] 10:40 pm: control is central to Dominance, and often tied to sexual
arousal
[CJsHere] 10:41 pm: can you clarify that one a bit WB ?
[WinterBorn] 10:41 pm: Dominants will seek to be respected, but not by
advertising they're worth, but rather by striving to be worthy of respect,
trust, and desire
[WinterBorn] 10:42 pm: I wish I could articulate it better, but the exact
thought from an essay on which My notes for tonight are based, goes
[WinterBorn] 10:43 pm: I can't explain why I'm aroused by a woman's body I just
am, and thus I know I'm hetero....
[WinterBorn] 10:43 pm: I can't explain why I'm aroused when g.angel simply says
"yes Sir" but I am and thus I know I'm Dom.... (there's a lot more to Dom but
that's the best I can articulate it)
[WinterBorn] 10:45 pm: hope that clarifies.... probably just confuses, but it's
still something I'm seeking to understand
[WinterBorn] 10:46 pm: another thought..... to Me, Dominance is closely tied to
accepting vulnerability
[WinterBorn] 10:46 pm: as a necessary part of being trusted
[CJsHere] 10:47 pm: can You give an example to help clarify that?
[WinterBorn] 10:47 pm: I would suggest, that one distinguishing mark of a Dom,
is that
[WinterBorn] 10:47 pm: I think this may clarify
[WinterBorn] 10:48 pm: a distinguishing mark of a Dom, is that given trust, when
someone is vulnerable and reliant, He rises to the challenge and is driven to do
His utmost...... where a poser simply exploits
[CJsHere] 10:49 pm: nods
[WinterBorn] 10:50 pm: a Dominant is equally demanding, because He is confident
of the rightness of His vision..... and sensitive to the needs and abilities of
those who trust Him
[jazmin] 10:52 pm: that makes sense
[RB0629] 10:52 pm: very well put WB
[WinterBorn] 10:52 pm: another thought: Dominance is closely related to the
patriarchal vision of manhood
[WinterBorn] 10:53 pm: Manhood as opposed to boyishness, opposed to brutishness, and opposed to feminity
[chetemarina] 10:53 pm: yes it so is, Sir WB
[WinterBorn] 10:53 pm: Dominance offers stability, consistency, and strength to
others during stress, because it is not in One's nature to shirk
[WinterBorn] 10:55 pm: Dominance is adhering to logic and morality during
adversity out of confidence in Who One is, the vision of what is correct and
One's ability to pass the test of putting it in action
[fire] 10:55 pm: wonders about that...here lately...
[WinterBorn] 10:55 pm: care to elaborate fire?
[fire] 10:55 pm: :D no Sir.....just thinking outloud
[WinterBorn] 10:56 pm: Dominance is gentlemanliness: the strength of a man,
offered gently rather than brutishly imposed. It involves courtesy,
respectfulness, dignity.
[WinterBorn] 10:57 pm: My ideals of Dominance are not only compatible with, they
demand a sweet and pleasant bearing, diplomacy, and sensitivity
[WinterBorn] 10:57 pm: Dominance requires honesty. Honestly facing who I am, and who I choose to become, and the social norms that My nature is sometimes at odds with. Honestly opening up to My girl. Keeping My word. Faithfulness to all
commitments. Honestly pursuing aspects of My nature that require me to confront
taboos and the philosophies behind them.
[WinterBorn] 10:58 pm: Dominance is largely about empowerment. It is the
opposite of self-pity.
[WinterBorn] 10:58 pm: Dominance has a lot to do with stability; being
consistent and even tempered
[WinterBorn] 10:58 pm: Dominance both stems from and drives One's self image
[WinterBorn] 10:59 pm: Dominance is largely about pride and ego.
[CJsHere] 10:59 pm: It seems to Me that some of the things You've listed, are
things that You find "work" for You. not necessarily something that all
Dominats have/do.
[WinterBorn] 10:59 pm: To Me those are negative traits, but honestly a lot of
the most honorable traits I have are motivated by pride, and it's at the bottom
of the need to Dominate, to lead, control, protect, etc
[WinterBorn] 10:59 pm: True CJ...... these are the things I've analyzed about
the role in general mixed with the path I personally have chosen.....
[mysticlilly] 10:59 pm: Sir WB...may I ask a question?
[WinterBorn] 11:00 pm: and I apologise if it has been carelessly jumbled
together...... please do, lilly
[mysticlilly] 11:01 pm: you say that Dominance is empowerment...the opposite of
self pit....so....self pity equals sub?
[mysticlilly] 11:01 pm: is that what your saying?
[WinterBorn] 11:01 pm: no... not at all
[mysticlilly] 11:01 pm: Or do I misunderstand
[WinterBorn] 11:01 pm: Dominance is not the opposite of submissiveness but it's
complementary half
[WinterBorn] 11:03 pm: well, it's well past our time.... any thoughts,
questions, comments?
[fire] 11:03 pm: none here Sir.....thank You so much....
[jazmin] 11:03 pm: SIr's would all these statements hold true for Dominance in
women too
[infinity_CA] 11:04 pm: it seems to me that dominance is innate. You are
biologically programmed to do this.
[WinterBorn] 11:04 pm: agreed, as I said at the beginning, this is both My own
path, and referring to Dominance including Dommes, Masters, and Mistresses,
jazzy
[CJsHere] 11:04 pm: I think that the word "all" might be deceiving, remember,
some of these traits are very individual and may not work for some,,
[WinterBorn] 11:04 pm: an extremely interesting point, infinity.... I have no
idea how much is nature and how much is nurture
[jazmin] 11:05 pm: yes true
[infinity_CA] 11:06 pm: Sir WB, for the most part, i believe it is prevailing
sentiment that nurture no longer factors in. nurture was the basis of D/s being
included in the DSM manual
[infinity_CA] 11:06 pm: which was a huge blow to the community
[WinterBorn] 11:07 pm: honestly for Myself, infinity... yes I'm extremely driven
towards a Dominant role towards My life mate...... BUT. I also recognize, I have
psychological needs to be submissive, to find My place within a firm structure,
with Myself far from being at the top of the heap
[WinterBorn] 11:08 pm: and frankly, I'm as skeptical of the social expectiations
of the academic community, as any others......... but they're extremely
interesting
[CJsHere] 11:08 pm: okay, if I may,,
[infinity_CA] 11:08 pm: yes Sir but i believe that is more a human trait rather
than simply a submissive one
[CJsHere] 11:08 pm: looking to the clock, I see that we've pushed well past our
hour,, so for those that need to call it a night,
[CJsHere] 11:09 pm: Ido want to thank everyone, especially WB for participation
this evening,
[fire] 11:09 pm: thanks SirWB...most graciously....
[CJsHere] 11:09 pm: and yes, all are more than welcome to stay to pursue this
topic further,
[WinterBorn] 11:09 pm: thanks for the invitation CJ, fire
[CJsHere] 11:10 pm: but, if for no other reason,, I'm going to have to call this
one a wrap for Myself personally,, I've got an extremely long day ahead
tommorow,, and a ball game to attend in the evening,
[chetemarina] 11:10 pm: thank You Sir WB. this was a good discussion, lots to
think about.

 

 

 

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